Ron Pope - American Man, American Music
American Man, American Music
Ron Pope, singer-songwriter and founder of Brooklyn Basement Records, shares his unfiltered thoughts on the music industry and the challenges of staying independent.
His journey is a testament to his resilience and artistic drive.
Discover the untold stories behind his music, the lessons he’s learned, and the inspiration that keeps him going.
And don’t miss his latest album, American Man, American Music...a powerful and personal testament to his journey as an artist and an individual.
You’ll Also Discover:
How to Support Independent Artists.
A Strategy for Building a Loyal Fan Base.
Why the Music Industry Needs Change.
A Step to Reclaiming Your Creativity.
The Surprising Truth About Success.
What’s your biggest takeaway from Ron Pope’s insights into the music industry?
Check out Ron's Music here: https://ronpope.com/
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Transcript
Southern dream brown skin doll I met her on the beach down in Panama Said look me up if you get back home It'd be a crying shame for us to sleep alone and now I'm 27 miles outside of Augusta at a bar that doesn't have a name Singing sweet home Alabama for the one paying customer and drinking til I couldn't spell my name There's a pretty little girl waiting for me down in Macon.
Speaker B:But it' safe to say I probably.
Speaker A:Shouldn'T drive I've had a damn good ride All I really learned from living is nobody's gonna make it out alive.
Speaker B:The most unbelievable moment on stage.
Speaker B:We were playing in Sweden, a big festival there.
Speaker B:I was like, gotta drag the guys halfway across the earth.
Speaker B:No one's gonna watch us.
Speaker B:And all of a sudden people start chanting my name.
Speaker B:10,000 people had showed up the next year at that festival.
Speaker B:I played on the main stage for 50,000 people.
Speaker B:And I feel just as com.
Speaker B:I don't have to do anything different.
Speaker B:Whether there's 100 people or there's 50,000 people, for me it's the same.
Speaker B:I'm gonna try to put on the best show that I can.
Speaker B:Wherever we are.
Speaker B:There were nights on this last tour where I'd look over at Caitlin.
Speaker B:Damn, look where we are.
Speaker C:Americana music transforms the world.
Speaker C:And unfortunately, too many are unaware of its profound impact.
Speaker C:Americana musicians are the unsung heroes here.
Speaker C:You'll join us in exploring these passionate artists and how they offer inspiration and hope for the future.
Speaker C:This show makes it happen in a fun and entertaining way.
Speaker C:You'll discover new music that you'll love, hard earned lessons from the road, the story behind favorite songs, a big dose of inspiration for you and your friends, and a good laugh along the way.
Speaker C:I'm Ben Fanning and my co host is Zach Schultz.
Speaker C:It's time to get Americana curious.
Speaker B:Foreign.
Speaker D:Hey there, everybody.
Speaker D:Welcome back to Americana Curious.
Speaker D:We're going to dive into a really special artist today.
Speaker D:His he's a true musical renaissance man.
Speaker D:Ron Pope.
Speaker D:That's right, the Iran Pope.
Speaker D:Nashville based, but Georgia raised.
Speaker D:Ron's journey is as compelling as his music.
Speaker D:From a promising baseball career, Rutgers cut short by an injury to a pivotal shift to NYU in the pursuit of his musical passion.
Speaker D:Ron's story is one of resilience and artistic drive.
Speaker D:You undoubtedly know his massive hit A Drop in the Ocean, a track that surpassed a billion streams and achieved platinum status.
Speaker D:But his story does not stop there, y'all.
Speaker D:He's forged his own path, establishing Brooklyn basement records.
Speaker D:And releasing a steady stream of powerful albums like Work, Bone Structure, the Builder trilogy, and Inside Voices, all within the last five years.
Speaker D:And he is not slowing down with a brand new album that we cannot wait for you to hear.
Speaker D:American Man.
Speaker D:American Music dropping soon.
Speaker D:He continues to create his own rules, connecting with a fiercely loyal fan base across the globe.
Speaker D:Let's get curious with Ron Pope.
Speaker D:Ron, welcome to Americana Curious.
Speaker B:Thanks for having me.
Speaker B:Wow, man, after that intro, I feel like I'm really gonna have to do something while I'm on here.
Speaker B:Goodness gracious.
Speaker D:I have to do something today.
Speaker D:That's right.
Speaker D:I'm just awesome.
Speaker D:No, I'm just.
Speaker B:I'm just at home.
Speaker B:I'm being a dad right now.
Speaker B:I got.
Speaker B:I got this mole problem in my yard I've got to deal with.
Speaker B:That's kind of besides this.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's my biggest goal today, is to see about these moles.
Speaker D:They're brutal.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:Yeah, they're brutal.
Speaker D:And you can't get rid of them in the South.
Speaker D:I live in Charleston, South Carolina.
Speaker D:Let me tell you, it's the never ending story chasing those things.
Speaker B:They're.
Speaker B:They're real monsters.
Speaker B:I'm not going to lie.
Speaker D:Well, that's good.
Speaker D:Today we had to stop run in the middle of a story before we get going because we don't like all the stories.
Speaker D:Not to get on here, but Zach and I are up at the road trip to Raleigh, which is American Aquarium's music festival.
Speaker D:And we were talking about a great little set that the Lone Bellow did.
Speaker D:And Ryan's like, yeah, I think some of them live in our neighborhood or in your neighborhood in Nashville.
Speaker D:So maybe give us the breakdown on what that's been.
Speaker B:Well, I just.
Speaker B:I know that I do.
Speaker B:I'm not going to say who lives near me, but one of them walks their dog past my house.
Speaker B:Sometimes when I'm sitting at my table, I see one of them go by with the dog.
Speaker B:And I think also maybe some of our.
Speaker B:Some of our kids go to the same elementary school, which is.
Speaker B:It's just what it is like in Nashville.
Speaker B:So a few years ago, I was pushing my daughter in a stroller and I was walking and I saw Chris Eldridge, who is from everything, but he's in the Punch Brothers.
Speaker B:And I saw Chris and he was.
Speaker B:I think they had a new baby at that point.
Speaker B:So he's pushing a stroller.
Speaker B:And I was like, hey, man, how are.
Speaker B:And we started talking and I was like, oh, my God.
Speaker B:This isn't someone who I know I was taking Chris's True Fire flat picking course on the Internet.
Speaker B:So I had spent all this time with him recently at that point, but he didn't know me.
Speaker B:I was a stranger watching his guitar course on the Internet and learning it.
Speaker B:And so I realized in the middle of this discussion, I was like, oh, we are not.
Speaker B:We don't know each other.
Speaker B:We're just.
Speaker B:I just hang out on the Internet with the thing that you made.
Speaker B:I am.
Speaker B:It's funny, but that's an interesting part of Nashville.
Speaker B:You walk into the grocery store and there's one of the best flat pickers in the world or some songwriter you love or somebody that's in a band that you have gone to see.
Speaker B:And increasingly, I've been making records now for 20 years.
Speaker B:And as time has gone on, there's been more and more of these people where I'm like, oh, look, like, here's my.
Speaker B:Here's.
Speaker B:You're like, oh, all musicians are my.
Speaker B:Are my peers.
Speaker B:And so this is normal.
Speaker B:But like, as a music fan, you recognize that this is not normal.
Speaker B:You're like, oh, wow, there's.
Speaker B:There's such and such and friends.
Speaker B:I'm friends with.
Speaker B:I was talking about Robbie Hecht the other day because we're good friends.
Speaker B:Robbie has this song called Damn Good Advice, and it's one of my favorite songs in the whole world.
Speaker B:But Robbie is also like a very close friend of mine.
Speaker B:Like my.
Speaker B:My daughter thinks that Robbie is the funniest person in the world because when she was three years old, he showed up to go trick or treating with us, and he got out of his car in a full gorilla costume with the head under his arm, and he gets out of his car.
Speaker B:She points at him and she goes, that guy's funny.
Speaker B:He's with me.
Speaker B:And so she.
Speaker B:She drafted Robbie Hecht to be her, Her.
Speaker B:Her.
Speaker B:Her big buddy.
Speaker B:And so there.
Speaker B:Genius songwriter.
Speaker B:And so that's.
Speaker B:That's an interesting part about being both a musician and a fan of music.
Speaker B:Oh, look at all these people there in my community.
Speaker B:And how weird is that?
Speaker B:Sometimes.
Speaker B:Sometimes it's weird.
Speaker D:What does that mean to you and your music and what you bring when you're on tour?
Speaker D:The fact that you live in such a creative ethos in Nashville.
Speaker B:Well, you don't want to embarrass yourself.
Speaker B:I would say that.
Speaker B:But also, there are certain stuff.
Speaker B:I think you can be the baddest guitar player in whatever place you're from.
Speaker B:You're the best songwriter anybody's ever heard, the best singer when you come here, there's always even the very best people, the people at the absolute top of the food chain in whatever thing you do, there's somebody who's just like you here.
Speaker B:Basically you have a.
Speaker B:At the very least, you have lateral peers.
Speaker B:Like even the virtuosos in town, they know somebody that they're like, yeah, she might be better than me.
Speaker B:And, and I think that that's a really, a really cool thing because I don't know.
Speaker B:When I was playing music, I lived in New York for a long time before this.
Speaker B:And although New York is a big city, the ecosystem surrounding music is so much smaller.
Speaker B:And so there is less big touring gigs coming out of New York.
Speaker B:They hear if, if you're a great player and you show up and you're nice and you are professional and you can get along with people, you do your job.
Speaker B:Those people work in this town.
Speaker B:They're, they're on the road, they're making records, whatever it is.
Speaker B:Like, if you're great and you're disciplined and hardworking and you're an easy person to deal with, you're going to, you're going to eat in this town.
Speaker B:And in New York, some of the very best players that I knew were standing outside of a 250 cap club trying to scratch up another gig to make $150.
Speaker B:And so that's, I think Nashville, Nashville humbles you.
Speaker B:No matter how good you are at whatever the thing is you do, there's somebody else who does something similar and they're either just as good as you or better.
Speaker B:And I think that that's something that.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:It's good because there's a lot of kind of unchecked hubris in music.
Speaker B:And so it's nice to have people around that remind you that you can always do more.
Speaker B:You put out a new record and then Jason Isbull puts out a new record.
Speaker B:You're like, you're like, you gotta be kidding me.
Speaker B:Like, come on.
Speaker B:I can't.
Speaker B:You can't give me six months.
Speaker B:Like, you can't take a break right now.
Speaker D:You need a little bit of a head start.
Speaker B:Just like, send me an email.
Speaker B:Oh my God.
Speaker B:I could.
Speaker B:Oh my God.
Speaker B:He gives me heartburn.
Speaker B:God bless him.
Speaker E:I was just going to bring it back to your time in New York because you have this hit pretty much out of the gate.
Speaker E:A drop in the ocean.
Speaker E:How did you realize or when did you realize how massive it really was?
Speaker B:Well, first of all, I had been putting out Records for years before that came out.
Speaker B:I'd been in a band since I was a teenager.
Speaker B:I'd been writing songs for like a decade at that point.
Speaker B:I had been making music for a very long time and trying to do it the old fashioned way.
Speaker B:I came up at the very end of the traditional music business.
Speaker B:Like, I got on social media at the very beginnings of social media, like when I was at college, we got.
Speaker B:We were one of the second sets of schools to get Facebook because one of my college friends had roomed with Mark Zuckerberg at a summer program.
Speaker B:So we just happened to get it, like after.
Speaker B:After some of the.
Speaker B:After the Ivy's got it, I guess we got it next and we were in the next batch of schools.
Speaker B:And so I was early on social media and MySpace.
Speaker B:My brother is a big early adopter with tech stuff and he still is.
Speaker B:And so my brother keyed me in on MySpace super early.
Speaker B:And so I was doing that at the very beginnings of social media, like before they called it social media, when we were just doing the Internet or whatever, and there was no clear idea of what it meant.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:But I was really.
Speaker B:I came from the traditional.
Speaker B:I went out, I was in a band, I played in bars, I went on the road with my friends.
Speaker B:And I was trying to build something tangible, like in the.
Speaker B:In the real world, because that's traditionally what bands did, you know, I mean, I grew up in Georgia.
Speaker B:I moved there when I was 11 from New Jersey.
Speaker B:And so I had this weird kind of like placeless upbringing where I didn't feel at home anywhere.
Speaker B:And so I joined a band and it was like joining a gang.
Speaker B:If you take kids who don't have a sense of community, you put them in a band and all of a sudden there, it's really.
Speaker B:It's like joining a gang.
Speaker B:You're like, oh, this is my family now.
Speaker B:This is where I belong.
Speaker B:And so I was out doing that for a long time and making very, very, very little headway there.
Speaker B:Like, really.
Speaker B:I was out on the road with my friends playing every shitty honky tonk and roadhouse and biker bars and in the.
Speaker B:Whatever, like the stage behind a sushi restaurant, anywhere, anywhere that they would let us plug in our stuff.
Speaker B:We were like, all right, let's, let's.
Speaker B:Let's turn it up to 11.
Speaker B:Let's go for it.
Speaker B:And so I think to say that it happened quickly is to maybe neglect that first decade leading up to it.
Speaker B:And I had written that song a few years before it broke.
Speaker B:And then we Were pitching tunes for somebody and I pitched that and they didn't pick it.
Speaker B:And one of my friends who worked in the music business, he was like, that ocean song, that's a good song, man.
Speaker B:You should put that out.
Speaker B:So I just put out the work tape.
Speaker B:It's just one take through on a keyboard and one take vocal.
Speaker B:And that's the first version of that.
Speaker B:That's all it is.
Speaker B:And that started to go gradually, get bigger and bigger and bigger.
Speaker B:And in the first few years, we sold millions of copies of it around the world and sold tons and tons of other digital tracks, digital singles.
Speaker B:This is when itunes was really happening.
Speaker B:And so I was lucky.
Speaker B:I had a friend who was an intern at one of the Digital Distribution Companies, TuneCore.
Speaker B:And so he was like, hey, since your stuff's happening online, why don't we let's.
Speaker B:We could put it on itunes.
Speaker B:I've got this.
Speaker B:I work at this company.
Speaker B:And so that's how it all started.
Speaker B:I was pretty immediately, as people were listening, I was like, oh, this is cool, but how do we turn this into a job?
Speaker B:I was.
Speaker B:I didn't grow up with any money.
Speaker B:I was living hand to mouth.
Speaker B:I was working.
Speaker B:I was a security guard, and I was playing music in the subway.
Speaker B:So, I mean, half.
Speaker B:I would get fired from whatever survival job I was doing because I was a security guard.
Speaker B:I was a waiter.
Speaker B:I did a lot of things pretty poorly.
Speaker B:And then.
Speaker D:You can write a song, baby.
Speaker B:Yeah, but when you're 23 years old and you're good at writing songs, it is.
Speaker B:I mean, I.
Speaker B:I can imagine from my parents perspective, I was essentially a panhandler, and I was playing music on a subway platform, trying to make enough change to pay my rent.
Speaker B:And it had to be terrifying for my family.
Speaker B:I remember one of my uncles, my uncle Bill, who is so supportive of my music.
Speaker B:And sometimes when I play in New York, he shows up with 50 people.
Speaker B:Like, literally, he gets a bus and he comes with a whole gang of people.
Speaker B:So supportive.
Speaker B:But I remember once in the first few years I was out of school, and he's like, what are you going to do?
Speaker B:And I was like, well, I think I'm going to take a few years and really pursue my music.
Speaker B:And then if it doesn't work out, maybe I'll.
Speaker B:I'll figure something else out.
Speaker B:I'll go back to school.
Speaker B:Maybe I'll become a lawyer.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:He goes, what are you, Kennedy?
Speaker B:What are you talking about?
Speaker B:Like, stay away from my.
Speaker B:Stay away from my Kids, you hippie.
Speaker D:Where's this trust fund coming from?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Like, what do you think you're going to do?
Speaker B:And it's hysterical.
Speaker B:It's hysterical now because, I mean, he's been so supportive.
Speaker B:He's like a big brother to me.
Speaker B:But at the time he just, he's like, it's in my family.
Speaker B:It's hysterical to imagine that a person's going to try to do something like this.
Speaker B:Who do you think you are, that you're going to try to go out into the world?
Speaker B:Like, I didn't know anybody that made a living in the arts.
Speaker D:And so what was the moment you did, though?
Speaker D:Like, you, I mean, you're, you're so.
Speaker D:You're busking in the subway, you're a security guard.
Speaker D:It's not working out too well.
Speaker D:You're like, well, I'm just going to keep doing this.
Speaker D:I'm going to keep performing.
Speaker D:Even though it seems like the cards are really stacked against you, including your uncle who now loves your musical career.
Speaker D:But at the time was like, I'm a little concerned about little Ronnie.
Speaker B:Yeah, he definitely didn't, he definitely didn't want me talking to his kids about this.
Speaker B:And to be fair, his kids are now, they are grown ups and they are wildly accomplished.
Speaker B:So he was right to tell me to talk to them.
Speaker B:But what a moment.
Speaker B:Went to mit, one of his kids, so they did great.
Speaker B:But anyway, was there a particular moment?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:For me, there wasn't some sort of I made it moment.
Speaker B:There's been lots of moments over the years where you look left, you look right, and I go, oh my goodness, we're making it today.
Speaker B:We're making it.
Speaker B:It's really happening.
Speaker B:But there's never been.
Speaker B:I didn't have some kind of giant watershed moment where it was like all of a sudden blank happened.
Speaker B:It really has been this long, gradual process.
Speaker B:When I got popular on the Internet, which is now 18 years ago when that happened, there was no blueprint for this.
Speaker B:Like Colby Calais got popular on the Internet about.
Speaker B:Right about the same time as me.
Speaker B:And before that, no one had gotten popular making music on the Internet.
Speaker B:So there was no real idea of what was happening.
Speaker B:And so in the very beginning, some of the major labels started dancing around me, trying to sign me, but there was nothing really appealing going on.
Speaker B:And then, because I had this friend who told me I could put music into a place where people could buy it if they wanted it, I started making money.
Speaker B:And so that put me in a position where I Was like, well, now I can just do it.
Speaker B:Like, now it's a.
Speaker B:Now it's a business.
Speaker B:I went from being just in the music and I was just hustling because I love music so much and I was so passionate about making music.
Speaker B:I then went to being in the music business because.
Speaker B:And that's money in entertainment is sort of an undeniable thing.
Speaker B:They can say, oh, I don't think in the past music business people could say, you're not blank.
Speaker B:Whatever.
Speaker B:The thing is that you're not this enough.
Speaker B:You're not that enough.
Speaker B:I don't hear a hit.
Speaker B:There's not enough tempo.
Speaker B:But if you go out and you sell millions and millions of recordings, that argument goes out the window.
Speaker B:What your ears say at that point doesn't matter anymore.
Speaker B:The instincts of that executive who's worked at a record label for 30 years, that's irrelevant if people are consuming the music at scale.
Speaker B:And that is what happened for me.
Speaker B:And it wasn't something that was manipulated.
Speaker B:There was no marketing.
Speaker B:There was no money involved.
Speaker B:It was just people.
Speaker B:People took the music.
Speaker B:And I assume it's because I was.
Speaker B:I had been on the road, like I said, I had been making records for a bunch of years already, and I had been on the road for a long time and had been playing out.
Speaker B:So I was kind of actualized already.
Speaker B:I was in a real thing.
Speaker B:I wasn't.
Speaker B:There was no world at that point where a kid was playing guitar in front of their phone or in front of their computer or whatever.
Speaker B:You couldn't do it into your phone then.
Speaker B:But there was no world where you could all of a sudden assume that you could find a global audience by doing that.
Speaker B:And so I had been training my whole life to be a real musician.
Speaker B:Like, to be a musician that gets on stage and plays songs in front of people and makes records.
Speaker B:Like, I was in training for that.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The world of the Internet.
Speaker B:And in terms of sharing music, that didn't exist.
Speaker B:And so I think that that's probably why.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:Why it worked, is people saw that I was just a guy who writes songs and plays them and makes records.
Speaker B:And there's.
Speaker B:There's something real in that.
Speaker B:It wasn't.
Speaker B:It wasn't manipulated.
Speaker B:It wasn't.
Speaker B:It wasn't a trick.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:It was something very concrete.
Speaker B:And people.
Speaker B:It's still.
Speaker B:That's still what we have here.
Speaker B:It's still what I.
Speaker B:What I'm giving out.
Speaker E:You started Brooklyn Basement Records with your wife to go fiercely independent, basically, which we Love the authenticity of that on this show.
Speaker E:But what has been, like, the most challenging part of that?
Speaker E:Not not working with your wife.
Speaker E:She's the boss, I bet.
Speaker E:But versus, what's the most rewarding at the end of the day?
Speaker E:Being kind of being able to do it on your own terms?
Speaker B:Look, at the end of the day, every household name that you think of works with a major label on some level or they have at some point.
Speaker B:There's nobody.
Speaker B:Whether it's historically or can contemporaneously, whatever, right now at this moment.
Speaker B:Like, you don't become Sturgill Simpson without a major label, and.
Speaker B:Or Zach Bryan, you're not gonna get.
Speaker B:You're not gonna get into a football stadium by yourself.
Speaker B:It's not possible.
Speaker B:Because the infrastructure that is required to spread music at scale is controlled by and large by these very powerful corporations.
Speaker B:And anytime something new is created to spread music, they either buy it or they learn how to use their money to influence it.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, as a small company, as an independent artist, as an independent label, what my gang and I are trying to do at all times is really what I was doing in the beginning.
Speaker B:We're trying to figure out, how do we reach people?
Speaker B:Because I'm just a person.
Speaker B:I'm just a person, and I'm making stuff that I believe in.
Speaker B:It's, like, pretty straightforward.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker D:I think Ron, I mean, if you.
Speaker D:If you're.
Speaker D:You're going against.
Speaker D:Not against, but you're working in the same.
Speaker B:We're going against them.
Speaker D:Okay, all right, we'll say it that way.
Speaker D:What.
Speaker D:What can Zach and I do?
Speaker D:What can.
Speaker D:Americana Curious Nation.
Speaker D:What can.
Speaker D:The listeners are like, yeah, I like Ron.
Speaker D:I like his music.
Speaker D:But they're just listening to you on Spotify.
Speaker D:What can we do?
Speaker B:First of all, if you want an artist to be able to keep making records, you can't listen only on streaming.
Speaker B:Like, that can't be the only way.
Speaker B:Like, if you want it to still be there.
Speaker B:And I understand this is a.
Speaker B:Some.
Speaker B:If you don't.
Speaker B:If you don't have the money to support in any other way.
Speaker B:That's a wonderful way.
Speaker B:Like, listen to the records wherever you can and spread the gospel.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:That's, of course, that's.
Speaker D:That's like.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's level one.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker B:But beyond that, it's like, it takes money to make records.
Speaker B:Like, you're talking about American Aquarium.
Speaker B:I know y'all.
Speaker B:Y'all are, you know, there.
Speaker B:Those records have people on them.
Speaker B:You know, you can hear that There are people in the room playing that music.
Speaker B:You have to be in a room that costs money.
Speaker B:You have to have people in that room that costs money.
Speaker B:And so making records, especially roots music, it costs money because you need professionals in the room.
Speaker B:You need people who can really play and sing, and you're making them in a, in a studio, usually.
Speaker B:And so I would say the number one way to support artists that you like is to buy the record on vinyl, buy a sweatshirt, buy a ticket, it's your money, Your money.
Speaker B:If you do, if you do something where if you buy a record for $40, you buy a sweatshirt for 50 or $60, most of that money is probably going to that artist, especially if they're an independent artist, virtually all the money is going to them.
Speaker B:Whereas on a streaming service where you're making 1/3 per stream, or maybe in the better paying ones, you're making half or six, 10 or whatever.
Speaker B:It's really hard.
Speaker B:Even at the scale that my music is being consumed, which is quite substantial, and I'm very lucky.
Speaker B:It's hard to make a real living because they keep cutting the rates as well.
Speaker B:Like when I started on the, on the big streaming services, you were getting nearly 7, 10 of a cent per stream, and now they just keep cutting the rates.
Speaker B:And so that's.
Speaker B:Even if you, even if you get millions of streams a month, which I am getting, they keep moving.
Speaker B:The goalpost.
Speaker B:Used to be that if you could get 3, 4, 5 million streams a month, that was a substantial living, but now they just keep cutting the rates.
Speaker B:So I think to support an artist if you can, if you are financially able, and I know times are hard and not everybody can, but if you can buy a record on vinyl, like My American Man, American Music is coming out on Valentine's Day.
Speaker B:And so if you preorder the album, if you buy the album, if you come to a show, you buy a ticket and then buy some merch, that's.
Speaker B:I think that's how most of us are staying in business at this point.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:We're trying to sell tickets, we're trying to sell sweatshirts, we're trying to sell vinyl and I think go to the shows.
Speaker B:I mean, yeah, because even, even that right now we're, we're all struggling with, as touring artists, the rates that we're getting paid are fundamentally the same that they were 10, 12 years ago, but the costs have gone up exponentially in that time, just like everything else.
Speaker B:And all these costs have gone up.
Speaker B:But I didn't get a raise, the inflation did not send me any extra money.
Speaker B:And so while whether you're in a bus or a van, however you're traveling, the cost of that has gone up exponentially.
Speaker B:The cost of staying places as you travel has gone up exponentially.
Speaker B:So the travel, all that.
Speaker B:And so unless it's at the very highest scale, pretty much everybody is struggling to figure out how to make this work.
Speaker B:And I'm not complaining because I get to make art as my job, and it's awesome.
Speaker B:But from a practical place of.
Speaker B:I do wonder, as I'm kind of in the middle of my story at this point.
Speaker B:It's like, I started to put out records when I was 20 years old, about to turn 21, and now I'm 41, and hopefully I can do this for a long time still.
Speaker B:But I don't know, for new artists, I don't know how you start at this point.
Speaker B:And for artists, for me, in the middle of my journey, we're kind of.
Speaker B:We're constantly having to pay attention and reimagine how it is that we share my music and share information, you know, and because at the most basic level, I'm just a dude who was in a southern rock band, and now I'm making this American music of all sorts, and I'm traveling around.
Speaker B:I'm trying to play guitar with a band of people behind me and sing songs for people.
Speaker B:It's like a very straightforward thing that has existed.
Speaker B:It's existed for a long time.
Speaker B:The thing that I'm trying to do.
Speaker D:As with my life, I mean, what you're touching on there is really why we do this show.
Speaker D:And you're really articulating it well, that we as fans and consumers of your amazing music, like, if we're gonna.
Speaker D:If you.
Speaker D:If you all are gonna be around the long haul to keep doing it, we've gotta be engaged with our artists and buy their albums and buy their merch.
Speaker D:And I wanna.
Speaker D:I really want to shine a light on your new album, American Man.
Speaker D:American Music.
Speaker D:I mean, Zach and I have been geeking out about this album.
Speaker E:It's so good.
Speaker D:And it's.
Speaker D:It is.
Speaker D:I mean, it is a strong, strong album.
Speaker D:But I'm curious, from your standpoint, how would you describe, like, what's the story behind the title and what are you hoping that the ride's gonna be like for people when they listen to this album?
Speaker B:Well, first of all, thank you for saying that you like it because it's not out yet, so almost no one has it.
Speaker B:So for all I know.
Speaker B:For all I know, people could hate it.
Speaker B:And so I'm very glad to hear.
Speaker B:I'm very glad to hear that.
Speaker A:Two.
Speaker B:Two of these.
Speaker E:Two people who have it.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean.
Speaker B:And joking aside, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B: recording towards the end of: Speaker B:So it's been a long time.
Speaker B:And so you.
Speaker B:You hatch these ideas and you go in and then you make the record and we mix it and we put it all together, and things got to get manufactured so that we have physical.
Speaker B:It's a whole.
Speaker B:A giant undertaking, you know?
Speaker B:And so it's been so long since I created these.
Speaker B:The beginnings of these ideas.
Speaker B:I've had a lot of time to live with them.
Speaker B:And so that allows you to stoke some degree of terror that.
Speaker B:Oh, my goodness, like, I've put so much of myself into this, and I put myself out there so much.
Speaker D:Songs seem very personal.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Well, in this record, I am the character at the center of all of the songs on this, except for I Gotta Change or I'm Gonna die.
Speaker A:Now what's a man worth if he can't work?
Speaker A:Was I really made as a rich man's hammer?
Speaker A:Is this all there'll ever be for me?
Speaker A:Now I gotta change I'm gonna die I wanna live so I'm gonna try Give it my best this ain't a test I plan to fail Where I come from they'll break a man what I got now I built with these hands I'm not afraid to get a little dirt beneath my nails this ain't a test I plan to fail.
Speaker B:Yeah, I wanted to write a song about the opioid epidemic and how angry I was that these billionaires that were able to lie to everybody and lie to our doctors and get us as a nation hooked on dope and killed all these people, and then nobody went to prison for doing this to us.
Speaker B:It was infuriating.
Speaker B:They just took these very, very wealthy people and they find them some money, so now they're just slightly less very wealthy.
Speaker B:Like, it didn't.
Speaker B:It didn't fundamentally change their lives, and no one went to prison.
Speaker B:And I was so, so pissed off about this.
Speaker B:But when I sat down to think about it, I realized all the people that I know in recovery, their lives are centered on hope.
Speaker B:They are the most hopeful people that I know.
Speaker B:And so I thought it would feel wrong to tell a story about these folks and not have it centered on hope.
Speaker B:So rather than writing about how pissed off I was, I instead wanted to tell a more hopeful story, a story that felt more in the spirit of what all these people that I know that are in recovery, how they move through their lives, because that's at the core of that song.
Speaker B:This is true for so many people in my life.
Speaker B:They're just waking up every day and they're going to work, and they're raising their kids, and they're trying their best to.
Speaker B:To survive this calamity that wasn't of their own making.
Speaker B:Nobody was like, you know what I really want to do?
Speaker B:Because I hurt my back.
Speaker B:I really want to get hooked on these oxies to where I can't live without them.
Speaker B:Nobody says that, but they lied to us, and it turned into this epidemic.
Speaker B:And so I don't know.
Speaker B:But with the exception of that song, I am the main character in all of these tunes.
Speaker B:And first of all, with the title, I think sometimes it's exasperating as an American and a man and a person who makes American music.
Speaker B:A lot of those words are used by people who kind of use them to bludgeon others and to say, I'm this, so you're not.
Speaker B:And I live under a really wide tent, and I want people to feel open and safe there.
Speaker B:So what I'm saying is like, yes, I am an American, but that doesn't mean that you're not an American.
Speaker B:If you are different than me, if you became a citizen yesterday, you're as much of an American as me.
Speaker B:This is a nation of immigrants.
Speaker B:If you are not a Native American, you're the child of immigrants or the grandchild or the great grandchild or whatever.
Speaker B:So the notion of American ness as some kind of place that you can be excluded from, it feels ridiculous to me.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And being a man, it's like, yes, I am a man, but it doesn't mean you're not a man.
Speaker B:If your notion of masculinity is different than mine or anything, it's like, that's.
Speaker B:That's for you to define.
Speaker B:Like I said at some point on this record, what's the measure of a man?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I'm learning.
Speaker B:That's part of growing up and becoming some kind of whatever version of a real adult I am.
Speaker B:I'm still trying to learn what does it mean to me to be a man.
Speaker B:And so American man and American music, it's like, I love music, which feels like a ridiculous thing to say, but I think when People imagine musicians, sometimes they imagine that you only listen to music that sounds like whatever the handful of songs of yours that they know.
Speaker B:But I love music and I have listened to so much different kinds of.
Speaker B:Of music over the course of my life and over the course of my days.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:I love that there's a song for everything You're.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you can go through.
Speaker B:I was the other night I was listening to Dean Martin with my daughter while we were cooking and.
Speaker B:But sometimes I'm listening to Tony Rice and then I'm listening to an artist that I found on TikTok yesterday.
Speaker B:Like, there's a guy named Theo Candle that I have been listening to this week.
Speaker B:I found him on TikTok.
Speaker B:I saw a video, I was like, damn, this is good.
Speaker B:And I found one of his records and I've been listening to it because I love it.
Speaker B:And I think that's an exciting thing about music.
Speaker B:Like you can listen to Stevie Wonder or you can listen to Albert King or Wu Tang Clan or Beyonce or whatever Brad Pitt, Brad Paisley record or an Elvis Presley record or Aretha, whatever.
Speaker B:Like you can, you can put on different music for different moments.
Speaker B:And so for me, the notion that I'm like, I am.
Speaker B:I'm making American music like it's founded on so many of American, America's musical tradition.
Speaker B:And like, I think one of the most American art forms is hip hop.
Speaker B:And I learned so much from being a giant hip hop fan growing up.
Speaker B:And you don't necessarily hear the influences of those hip hop artists in my music, but in practice as a creative person, I learned so much about like how to use bits and pieces of words to create rhythmic hooks in music.
Speaker B:And that's something that.
Speaker D:Wow, cool.
Speaker B:Maybe you're, you're not good.
Speaker B:You're not going to learn from the Carter Family, but there's lots to learn from the Carter Family.
Speaker D:Is there one song?
Speaker E:I was going to just tag on that a little bit.
Speaker E:A couple things.
Speaker E:I, I know this album is going to be good because when my 10 year old boy requests a song of yours, Mama droves the Mustang.
Speaker E:I know if I was connected with him, it's going to connect with people because he tries to listen to everything.
Speaker E:I don't know, like, you know what I mean?
Speaker E:He's the.
Speaker E:But let me ask about a specific lyric in this album.
Speaker E:Not the years in your life, it's the life in your years.
Speaker E:And then, man, that, that song, that lyric, that's just touching.
Speaker E:And I don't even know how you come up with the inspiration for something without having something horrible happen, if you know what I mean.
Speaker E:Because it's so punches.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, I think that living.
Speaker B:We're all either people who have already experienced profound loss or people who just haven't yet.
Speaker B:If you live long enough, everything you love will turn to dust around you.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:It's a heartbreaking reality, but it's reality.
Speaker B:Both my sets of grandparents, my mom's parents and my stepdad's parents, married forever, loved each other.
Speaker B:Beautiful.
Speaker B:My stepdad's father passed away last year.
Speaker B:And so my grandparents had this beautiful love story.
Speaker B:They were married almost 70 years, but it ends.
Speaker B:This is the most beautiful thing that could happen to you.
Speaker B:You love somebody your whole life, but then eventually it ends.
Speaker B:And my other set of grandparents, my grandfather died on a Tuesday, and my grandmother died the next Wednesday.
Speaker B:She was so.
Speaker D:Or she.
Speaker B:She went to sleep Tuesday night.
Speaker B:She didn't wake up.
Speaker B:She made it one week.
Speaker B:She went to sleep Tuesday.
Speaker B:She didn't wake up Wednesday, the next week.
Speaker B:And even these.
Speaker B:These beautiful.
Speaker B:These lifelong love stories, they end with somebody's heart being broken.
Speaker B:Like, you're not going to die on the same day, probably when.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:So I think that you have to enjoy the journey because in the end, we're all going to slip into the darkness.
Speaker B:That's how it works.
Speaker B:Like, part of what makes life so beautiful is eventually you run out of time.
Speaker B:And so that song, the life in your ears, it's a sort of a prayer for my family, for my wife, for my daughter, for my mother.
Speaker B:I've spent so much of my life out on the road away from my people.
Speaker B:And so I wanted to say to them, first of all, that when I'm out there on the road, I'm thinking of them like, I'm always on my way home.
Speaker B:I'm always pointed in the direction of home.
Speaker B:And that's a really important part of how I'm living my life.
Speaker B:Like, I'm not out there.
Speaker B:Like, I'm out there because I love to make music, and I want to connect with people and I want to share it with them.
Speaker B:And yes, this is my job, but it also is a calling for me.
Speaker B:It's something that I really want to go out there and connect with people who care about this music.
Speaker B:Because when I was coming up as a kid, I felt weird and alone and strange.
Speaker B:I think a lot of people have this.
Speaker B:And you find in music, you find people who make you feel less alone.
Speaker B:They're telling stories that you can connect to.
Speaker B:And I want to go out in the world and do that.
Speaker B:But at the same time, I love my wife.
Speaker B:I love my daughter.
Speaker B:And I understand, like, there's.
Speaker B:My wife doesn't have another husband.
Speaker B:My daughter doesn't have another father.
Speaker B:And every minute that I'm away from home, I am not here with them.
Speaker B:And that's something that I grapple with every day out there.
Speaker B:And so to me, the life in your years, it's about that idea that, like, I.
Speaker B:I love the life that I'm living, and I'm so proud of it and what I've been able to create.
Speaker B:And I want my family to know that when the end of my life comes, that I have had such profound joy.
Speaker B:And then I'm doing my best.
Speaker B:I'm doing my best to be a better version of myself than I thought was possible, because I think I owe it to my family.
Speaker B:I think owe it to the community of people that have built themselves up around this music.
Speaker B:So I am really trying.
Speaker B:I didn't think that I would be here.
Speaker B:I didn't think I would be 41 years old making records.
Speaker B:I was a.
Speaker B:A kid who went out and joined a southern rock band and played guitar and traveled around the country getting high and.
Speaker B:And making noise.
Speaker B:Like, I didn't think that I would grow up.
Speaker B:That wasn't like my.
Speaker D:There was an adult rock star.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, now I'm retired from.
Speaker B:From.
Speaker B:From a lot of the stupid shit that I used to do.
Speaker B:I, you know.
Speaker A:I am calling my maker when my shift's finally done Bring me home to my people Wrap me up in their love Like a blanket crocheted by some hands passed away I'm still praying their name no matter how far I've strayed and may the Lord bless and keep you When I'm so far away God protect all the babies Let them grow old and gray and when I'm gone Please recall all the good I saw here.
Speaker A:It's not the years in your life.
Speaker D:Your voice is your vessel.
Speaker D:And when you're young, it's probably a lot more pliable when you get older, right?
Speaker D:You probably.
Speaker D:You probably have a certain routine you follow now to help keep yourself from a practical place.
Speaker B:It's also.
Speaker B:If you want to do this forever, it's not possible to live like that forever.
Speaker B:And it's also not like.
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker B:I think people imagine sometimes it's like the tortured troubadour or like the guitar player that's like, I got a bottle of jack Daniels on top of your amp.
Speaker B:And I did that for a really long time.
Speaker B:And it's not a way to be able to maximize your ability to create things.
Speaker B:And it's not like you're not going to access the best version of yourself when you're, like, not sleeping, when you're full of drugs and you're drinking too much.
Speaker B:And I went out on the road and I thought that I had to become.
Speaker B:Become this character because I didn't think that there was anything good in me like, that I was.
Speaker B:I was not made of something good that I could extract.
Speaker B:I had to seek it out there.
Speaker B:And what I realized eventually is that that was wrong.
Speaker B:And what people were coming to me for was something that I already had, and it was in me.
Speaker B:And so I didn't have to break myself into a million pieces in order to try to find something.
Speaker B:I just had to do what I could to seek what was inside of myself, because I think people were connecting with the humanity in it.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:There's no tricks in my music.
Speaker B:I'm pretty actively just doing something very.
Speaker B:Like, I want to do something very.
Speaker B:That feels honest and straightforward, because I don't like you're talking about.
Speaker B:Mama drove a Mustang.
Speaker B:Like, my mom got a Mustang when she got divorced when she was 24.
Speaker B:And I was, by the way, is a.
Speaker E:Is just a banger.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker B:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:And so all of that.
Speaker B:That's a.
Speaker B:My parents got divorced when I was five years old, and so I don't know if Mama got a stain.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I don't know if that's, like.
Speaker B:I don't know if that goes in a rock song or not, but it's who I am and it's where I come from.
Speaker B:And my relationship with my mother is a part of my story.
Speaker B:And where.
Speaker B:Where the.
Speaker B:Like, I don't get to be whatever it is that I am now without going down that road.
Speaker B:And, like, all relationships are complex, like, how.
Speaker B:How we feel about the people who raise us and the people who love us and the people who we love.
Speaker B:It's nuanced.
Speaker B:And so I think it's hard to put all of that into song.
Speaker B:But I'm trying my best to show people who I am.
Speaker B:And I think when I was young, I used to only write who am I?
Speaker B:And now I'm at a point where I've been expressing who I am for a long time.
Speaker B:And now I'm trying to say, or trying to figure out, I guess, trying to ask myself and what does that.
Speaker D:Mean, wow, the deep questions.
Speaker D:Ryan, when you're on stage, I mean, would you mind sharing a story with us of a time you made a connection on the stage with someone or you're.
Speaker D:You're putting so much of yourself out there in your performance.
Speaker D:What's the feedback or what's a moment that it really resonated with, with a crowd or maybe an individual that was really meaningful to you?
Speaker B:For me, probably the most unbelievable moment on stage where we had an enormous connection with the crowd.
Speaker B: We were playing in Sweden in: Speaker B:And so before me at this festival, there was the son of a very famous musician.
Speaker B:He was playing his own set.
Speaker B:And while he was playing, there were seven people watching him in a space.
Speaker B:We were under a tent.
Speaker B:It was open on the side.
Speaker B:You could probably fit, I don't know, five to seven thousand people under the tent and thousands more people outside.
Speaker B:He had maybe seven people watching him.
Speaker B:And then he finished his set and everyone left.
Speaker B:So I'm backstage, I'm crying.
Speaker B:I called my mom on the phone.
Speaker B:I was like, oh my God, I dragged the guys halfway across the earth.
Speaker B:Like, no one's gonna watch us.
Speaker B:Like, what did I.
Speaker B:What a waste of my time.
Speaker B:Like, oh, why am I doing this?
Speaker B:What have I done?
Speaker B:Like, what am I doing with my life?
Speaker B:One of those kind of real existential crisis sort of moments.
Speaker B:And all of a sudden people start chanting my name.
Speaker B:And I was like, where is this coming from?
Speaker B:And I stood up and I turned around and 10,000 people had showed up the space.
Speaker B:You couldn't see any underneath the tents full outside of the tent.
Speaker B:You can't see a patch that you can stand on and see the stage that we are on.
Speaker B:It is utter and complete madness.
Speaker B:And so we went out there having never experienced anything like this in my life.
Speaker B:We were playing club shows at this point, sometimes for 75 people.
Speaker B:And so we went out there and the music had really popped off in the last year in that country.
Speaker B:And so we went out and they, I mean, they scream.
Speaker B:Sang along to every.
Speaker B:Every word of every song.
Speaker B:And so there's a song from my album Atlanta that's called One Grain of Sand.
Speaker B:And it's one of my more popular songs still at this point.
Speaker B:But we went out there, I think we played it first and they just roared at us and then started yelling the words back at us.
Speaker B:And I looked over, I looked over at Kyle McCammon who was playing bass for me then, who traveled with me for many years, and we both were just wide eyed like, oh my goodness, what's happening here?
Speaker B:And so that was a moment where I thought, wow, today we're really making it like this is really happening today.
Speaker D:How do you respond in that moment when you're on stage for the.
Speaker D:How did you respond when 10,000 people were yelling or yelling your lyrics back at you in Sweden?
Speaker B:Well, I am the same kind of all the time.
Speaker B:I feel pretty comfortable with every part of myself at this point, which is something I really grew into because I used to be just like this little like ball of self hatred.
Speaker B:But now I feel pretty comfortable whether I'm standing on the side of the stage, having a conversation with someone or whether I am standing in the middle of the stage.
Speaker B:Like the next year at that festival I played on the main stage for 50,000 people.
Speaker B:And I feel just as comfortable wherever, standing in front of the microphone because it's just another part of, of who I am.
Speaker B:And so I love it.
Speaker B:And it's really, that's exciting.
Speaker B:If you're, if you, your, your blood doesn't get going a little bit when you're standing in front of thousands of people that are very excited about what you're doing, you're probably not alive and.
Speaker B:But I feel really comfortable.
Speaker B:So I don't, I don't have to do anything different.
Speaker B:Whether there's a hundred people or whether there's a thousand people or there's 50,000 people.
Speaker B:For me it's the same.
Speaker B:I'm going to try to put on the best show that I can wherever we are, whoever we're playing for.
Speaker B:And obviously it's easier to draw energy from a large crowd that's very stoked than it is from a half empty room of people who mostly have their backs to you.
Speaker B:But I do my best to bring it wherever we are.
Speaker B:And I love to play, I really do.
Speaker B:It's fun to get to play.
Speaker B:And so we had.
Speaker B:There were nights on this last tour where I'd look over at Caitlin.
Speaker B:Caitlin Rates is playing fiddle and cello in my touring band and she's to my right on stage.
Speaker B:So I often turn and look at her and we're both just like, damn, look where we are.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:I'm so excited for your show up.
Speaker E:Well, I'm from Minneapolis, so I'll be at that turf club show on, I think it's the 22nd.
Speaker D:Oh, cool.
Speaker E:A couple weeks.
Speaker E:Yeah, I can't wait for that.
Speaker E:It's going to be awesome.
Speaker D:We could just keep.
Speaker D:We literally could go for hours with you.
Speaker D:And I get the feeling like your endurance for music interviews are probably really long, but we do have to end the interview here.
Speaker D:But thank you.
Speaker E:We kept you longer than we promised.
Speaker D:Either way, super easy to chat with you.
Speaker D:And y'all, please go check out one of Ron's shows.
Speaker B:And yeah, American man, American music, it's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's coming out.
Speaker B:It's ready to Valentine's Day.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:American man, American music.
Speaker B:Give it a listen.
Speaker D:It feels so Americana listening to that thing.
Speaker D:I mean, it's just.
Speaker E:Well, people are gonna love it.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I hope so.
Speaker A:Writing songs and fiddle keys Burning bright as kerosene?
Speaker A:I left home to chase a dream?
Speaker A:A dream ain't what I found?
Speaker A:Fighting man in the neon lights?
Speaker A:I came to the red mirror?
Speaker A:Least I know where I sleep tonight?
Speaker A:So I guess it ain't all bad?
Speaker A:Mama drove a Mustang when she was 25?
Speaker A:I was 6 years old.
Speaker A:How the hell we stay alive?
Speaker C:Thanks for joining Zach and I for this episode of Americana Curiosity.
Speaker C:Curious.
Speaker C:Subscribe where you listen to your podcast so you are notified when a new episode is released.
Speaker C:I'm Ben Fanning, and it's been great sharing these artists and music with you.
Speaker C:Until next time, stay Americana Curious.
